[OT] Exercise Club Report

[FurPaw]

OK, here's mine for the first day:

I went for a ~2-mile walk with Hubster and my dogs.
(This will get pretty boring for y'all, because walking is generally how
I exercise.)

Who's next?

FurPaw

[Edna Pearl]

I was just logging on to report, FurPaw.

Today: lower-body strength training
(I had thought of doing upper-body, but since I kayaked yesterday, I figured
I should let my upper-body rest today.)

I did:
1 set of 10 squats, bearing no weight but my own (the last time I did
squats, I overdid it and my quads hurt for days, so I took it easy today)
3 sets of toe-raises (works the calves) (I did both legs at the same time to
make it easy on myself for starters)
3 sets of hamstring curls with a stability ball
20 centered ab crunches
10 side ab crunches (this still bothers my back a little)
10 leg raises (works the lower abs -- this is a really hard one for me!)

Not much, but I want to start slow so I don't get discouraged or sore. I
have had enough pain this year without adding more with exercise injuries!

WTG on the two-mile walk, FurPaw.

ep

Post by FurPaw
I went for a ~2-mile walk with Hubster and my dogs.
(This will get pretty boring for y'all, because walking is generally how I
exercise.)

[Chakolate]

Post by Edna Pearl
Not much, but I want to start slow so I don't get discouraged or sore.
I have had enough pain this year without adding more with exercise
injuries!

It's plenty for a start. You're smart not to risk injury.

Chakolate

[FurPaw]

Post by Edna Pearl
I was just logging on to report, FurPaw.
Today: lower-body strength training
(I had thought of doing upper-body, but since I kayaked yesterday, I figured
I should let my upper-body rest today.)
1 set of 10 squats, bearing no weight but my own (the last time I did
squats, I overdid it and my quads hurt for days, so I took it easy today)
3 sets of toe-raises (works the calves) (I did both legs at the same time to
make it easy on myself for starters)
3 sets of hamstring curls with a stability ball
20 centered ab crunches
10 side ab crunches (this still bothers my back a little)
10 leg raises (works the lower abs -- this is a really hard one for me!)
Not much, but I want to start slow so I don't get discouraged or sore. I
have had enough pain this year without adding more with exercise injuries!
WTG on the two-mile walk, FurPaw.

And to you! I haven't done much strength training in my life. I should
probably add it to my routine. Eventually.

FurPaw

[Chris Malcolm]

I've signed up for a mountain winter skills course (ice axe and
crampon stuff) with some rather younger folk from another newsgroup,
some of whom are frighteningly fit, e.g., run marathons. In order not
to disgrace myself I've started training. Since I'm 62, developing
arthritis in a hip and a big toe, plantar fasciitis (heel spur) in the
same foot, and have a slightly dicky heart, I also need to find out if
I can even get up to a reasonable level any more. Was signing up a
good thing to do to motivate improved fitness, or was it the foolish
delusion of an andropausal male? My doc says I can expect to improve
my endurance by training, but at my age not much extra strength. And
I've got to avoid pushing myself competitively, or I might drop
dead. I love it when doctors challenge me! :-)

I've never been in a gym, or done gym-like exercises, since I was
ritually humiliated by the school gym teacher for being one of the
class weaklings. Once I managed to rid of the idea that I was a
pathetic congenital weakling, I used to train by getting outside and
doing it. But I'm now looking after a sick wife and the weather is
apalling outside, gales, rain, sleet, so I've started doing some
exercises in the house.

I've wondered whether, being a bloke, I ought to participate in this
exercise thread in asm. I don't want to annoy anyone. I can recall
some rather unpleasantly hostile threads in past years about the
relative strengths of men and women, olympic records, and so on. So in
case this is a sensitive area, I'll make this one posting, and if folk
object, my apologies, I won't do it again.

I started about two months ago, doing exercises at most for several
minutes two or three times a week. I've also been cycling or walking
up hills when time and weather permitted, but that's not often, less
than once a week. As directed by my doctor I do *not* speed up when
teenage girls whizz past me :-)

Indoors I'm doing body-weight-only full bum-on-heel squats, pull ups
from straight arms to nose to bar, and push ups. I started off being
able to do one pushup, only able to hang twitching and kicking as a
"pullup", and 30 squats. I'm now doing three pushups, two pullups, and
60 squats. Not bad so far for being supposedly too old to get much
stronger!

I think I need to read up on some of the exercises Edna has posted
about, curls and things, and start doing them too. I also need lots of
diverse upper body stuff, right out to forearms and hands, basic
monkey strength stuff. Weights seem to be what folk use for that, but
it seems to me the usual exercise weights are too compact and
in-the-hand to get strength and endurance right out to forearms and
hands. I'm eyeing up a yard of scaffolding pipe for that. I'm also
thinking of a skipping rope for calves.

The heart? It starts going wonky on a hospital cardiograph at over
150bpm. It feels happy but flat out at 140bpm, so I wear a heart
monitor and keep it mostly under 130bpm. Which means I'll probably
have to slow down the squats as they increase, because at 60 squats
I'm already hitting 125bpm.

When I started this I had a tendency to hurt my knees if I ran down a
flight of stairs. The knees are a lot stronger and harder to hurt now.

I've got to be very careful not to aggravate the heel spur. I'm
wearing podiatrist prescribed arch supports, and it seems to be
getting very slightly better. The problem is that if I favour the spur
I tend to aggravate the arthritic big toe joint, and vice versa. And
if I favour that leg, I aggravate the arthritis in the other hip.

It does begin to look as though I'm not going to get out of here alive
:-)

[suzilem]

Post by Chris Malcolm
The problem is that if I favour the spur
I tend to aggravate the arthritic big toe joint, and vice versa. And
if I favour that leg, I aggravate the arthritis in the other hip.

Oh yeah. I understand the concept. :-)

Pin in left ankle, bone spurs in right knee, plantar fasciitis in both feet,
and arthritis more places than I care to think about. :-)

Most of my exercise this winter is of the "push away from the table" variety
(PUSH!!! and hold-two-three-four)

[soft]

On Thu, 06 Jan 2005 14:14:08 GMT, "suzilem"

Post by suzilem

Post by Chris Malcolm
The problem is that if I favour the spur
I tend to aggravate the arthritic big toe joint, and vice versa. And
if I favour that leg, I aggravate the arthritis in the other hip.

Oh yeah. I understand the concept. :-)
Pin in left ankle, bone spurs in right knee, plantar fasciitis in both feet,
and arthritis more places than I care to think about. :-)
Most of my exercise this winter is of the "push away from the table" variety
(PUSH!!! and hold-two-three-four)

That sounds like me...I have vowed to eat more healthy this year than
I have been doing lately..

Karryl

[Chakolate]

Post by Chris Malcolm
I've signed up for a mountain winter skills course (ice axe and
crampon stuff) with some rather younger folk

"rather younger" meaning half your age?

Post by Chris Malcolm
from another newsgroup,
some of whom are frighteningly fit, e.g., run marathons. In order not
to disgrace myself I've started training. Since I'm 62, developing
arthritis in a hip and a big toe, plantar fasciitis (heel spur) in the
same foot, and have a slightly dicky heart, I also need to find out if
I can even get up to a reasonable level any more. Was signing up a
good thing to do to motivate improved fitness, or was it the foolish
delusion of an andropausal male? My doc says I can expect to improve
my endurance by training, but at my age not much extra strength. And
I've got to avoid pushing myself competitively, or I might drop
dead. I love it when doctors challenge me! :-)

He's forgetting your ace-in-the-hole: stamina. I've cycled from time to
time with rather younger folk (a third my age) and I've found that for long
distance endurance, I had it all over them. They always started out
stronger, but in the end it was the knows-how-to-pace-herself oldie that
had to encourage the kids.

Post by Chris Malcolm
I've never been in a gym, or done gym-like exercises,

Ah, so you've missed out on the annoying muzak, the fluorescent lights, and
the smell of sweat? Quel shame.

Post by Chris Malcolm
since I was
ritually humiliated by the school gym teacher for being one of the
class weaklings. Once I managed to rid of the idea that I was a
pathetic congenital weakling, I used to train by getting outside and
doing it. But I'm now looking after a sick wife and the weather is
apalling outside, gales, rain, sleet, so I've started doing some
exercises in the house.
I've wondered whether, being a bloke, I ought to participate in this
exercise thread in asm. I don't want to annoy anyone. I can recall
some rather unpleasantly hostile threads in past years about the
relative strengths of men and women, olympic records, and so on. So in
case this is a sensitive area, I'll make this one posting, and if folk
object, my apologies, I won't do it again.

I think you're a welcome addition. If Edna Pearl doeesn't intimidate me,
you haven't got a chance. :-)

Post by Chris Malcolm
I started about two months ago, doing exercises at most for several
minutes two or three times a week. I've also been cycling or walking
up hills when time and weather permitted, but that's not often, less
than once a week. As directed by my doctor I do *not* speed up when
teenage girls whizz past me :-)

LOL!

Post by Chris Malcolm
Indoors I'm doing body-weight-only full bum-on-heel squats, pull ups
from straight arms to nose to bar, and push ups. I started off being
able to do one pushup, only able to hang twitching and kicking as a
"pullup", and 30 squats. I'm now doing three pushups, two pullups, and
60 squats. Not bad so far for being supposedly too old to get much
stronger!

I wish I could do squats. At the moment I'm only able to get about a third
of the way down. That and the fact that I wear bifocals makes it really
hard to read the 'price per unit' info on the bottom shelf. :-p

Post by Chris Malcolm
I think I need to read up on some of the exercises Edna has posted
about, curls and things, and start doing them too. I also need lots of
diverse upper body stuff, right out to forearms and hands, basic
monkey strength stuff. Weights seem to be what folk use for that, but
it seems to me the usual exercise weights are too compact and
in-the-hand to get strength and endurance right out to forearms and
hands. I'm eyeing up a yard of scaffolding pipe for that. I'm also
thinking of a skipping rope for calves.

I hang twitching and kicking from the door frames, which I've been told are
strong enough to support me. The bar sounds interesting, though. Skipping
rope is excellent for the calves, but I'm not so sure how hard it'll be on
your toe.

I think it's more important how you use the weights than how they're
configured. Pivot points and all that, you know.

Post by Chris Malcolm
The heart? It starts going wonky on a hospital cardiograph at over
150bpm. It feels happy but flat out at 140bpm, so I wear a heart
monitor and keep it mostly under 130bpm. Which means I'll probably
have to slow down the squats as they increase, because at 60 squats
I'm already hitting 125bpm.

As they increase your tolerance will also increase, so it may not be as
much of a problem as you think. And are you familiar with the formula for
optimum heart rate? This article tells you how to skip that formula and
find your own:

http://tinyurl.com/6domg

Don't miss the later stuff about ninjas - it sounds like an interesting
group.

Post by Chris Malcolm
When I started this I had a tendency to hurt my knees if I ran down a
flight of stairs. The knees are a lot stronger and harder to hurt now.

I hope I can get to that point.

Post by Chris Malcolm
I've got to be very careful not to aggravate the heel spur. I'm
wearing podiatrist prescribed arch supports, and it seems to be
getting very slightly better. The problem is that if I favour the spur
I tend to aggravate the arthritic big toe joint, and vice versa. And
if I favour that leg, I aggravate the arthritis in the other hip.

I had the same problem when I had a heel spur and shin splints at the same
time. The best way to avoid/alleviate shin splints is with a strong heel-
and-toe walk, but than irritated the spur. Sigh.

Post by Chris Malcolm
It does begin to look as though I'm not going to get out of here alive
:-)

You never know - there are an awful lot of articles lately on the
possibility that aging is 'treatable'.



Chakolate

[soft]

Post by Chakolate

Post by Chris Malcolm
It does begin to look as though I'm not going to get out of here alive
:-)

You never know - there are an awful lot of articles lately on the
possibility that aging is 'treatable'.
Chakolate

I am impressed. Where did you learn so much about exercises? Maybe you
can guide me a bit on what to do. I have herniated discs everywhere,
fms, bone spurs & cysts. All joints have pain and each take a turn on
yelling the loudest at me.

I do use 3 lbs weights, which is doctor approved & and elipse walker.l
also use the big ball to stretch on and do few exercises on the ball.

I find when I walk I get extream hip pain somedays. Others I am good
to walk longer. I can't stand for long cause it feels like someone is
ripping my spine out thru the pelvic area.

I also mix in a bit of yoga for range of motion. I used to do 2 hrs
step areobics in the afternoon and jog 2 miles in the morning. It's
very frustrating to be so limited. I walk a fine line between too much
movement and too little. Both ways cause more pain.

I welcome any suggestions.

Karryl

[Chakolate]

Post by soft
I am impressed. Where did you learn so much about exercises? Maybe you
can guide me a bit on what to do. I have herniated discs everywhere,
fms, bone spurs & cysts. All joints have pain and each take a turn on
yelling the loudest at me.
I do use 3 lbs weights, which is doctor approved & and elipse walker.l
also use the big ball to stretch on and do few exercises on the ball.
I find when I walk I get extream hip pain somedays. Others I am good
to walk longer. I can't stand for long cause it feels like someone is
ripping my spine out thru the pelvic area.
I also mix in a bit of yoga for range of motion. I used to do 2 hrs
step areobics in the afternoon and jog 2 miles in the morning. It's
very frustrating to be so limited. I walk a fine line between too much
movement and too little. Both ways cause more pain.
I welcome any suggestions.

If I sound knowledgeable, it's a sham. But I suspect ep will be able to
give you lots of pointers.


Chakolate

[soft]

I thought I would post early, when I get off here it's my hubbies turn
and I won't be back on. I am going to start dinner and while it is
cooking I am going walk on the elipse for 20 mins. I will be listening
to the cheers to keep me going.

Karryl

[FurPaw]

Post by soft
I thought I would post early, when I get off here it's my hubbies turn
and I won't be back on. I am going to start dinner and while it is
cooking I am going walk on the elipse for 20 mins. I will be listening
to the cheers to keep me going.
Karryl

Yea Karryl! You go girl!

(Do you hear me?)

FurPaw

[Edna Pearl]

Cheers! Hurrah! Way to go!

Thank you for being there while I have missed three days' exercise. My
excuse: Another bleed-out. This too shall pass. I did manage to make it
to a meeting today, however, and I behaved intelligently, as far as I can
remember, anyway. :-)

ep

Post by FurPaw

Post by soft
I thought I would post early, when I get off here it's my hubbies turn
and I won't be back on. I am going to start dinner and while it is
cooking I am going walk on the elipse for 20 mins. I will be listening
to the cheers to keep me going.
Karryl

Yea Karryl! You go girl!
(Do you hear me?)
FurPaw
--
I see no reason to reply to anything typed above 90 decibels.
To reply, unleash the dog

[Chakolate]

Post by Edna Pearl
Thank you for being there while I have missed three days' exercise.
My excuse: Another bleed-out. This too shall pass. I did manage to
make it to a meeting today, however, and I behaved intelligently, as
far as I can remember, anyway. :-)

It is most difficult to exercise when you're bleeding out, and sometimes
makes the bleeding out worse.

And I think we should make this a no-fault exercise group: no excuses
needed, just cheers for what you do.

Chakolate

[Sue and Kevin Mullen]

Post by Chakolate

Post by Edna Pearl
Thank you for being there while I have missed three days' exercise.
My excuse: Another bleed-out. This too shall pass. I did manage to
make it to a meeting today, however, and I behaved intelligently, as
far as I can remember, anyway. :-)

It is most difficult to exercise when you're bleeding out, and sometimes
makes the bleeding out worse.
And I think we should make this a no-fault exercise group: no excuses
needed, just cheers for what you do.

I think no-fault is the best way to go, there are times that exercise
isn't wise.

I spent a good part of the day on the computer and got my exercise
grocery shopping tonight(grin).

sue

[Chris Malcolm]

Post by Sue and Kevin Mullen

Post by Chakolate

Post by Edna Pearl
Thank you for being there while I have missed three days' exercise.
My excuse: Another bleed-out. This too shall pass. I did manage to
make it to a meeting today, however, and I behaved intelligently, as
far as I can remember, anyway. :-)

It is most difficult to exercise when you're bleeding out, and sometimes
makes the bleeding out worse.
And I think we should make this a no-fault exercise group: no excuses
needed, just cheers for what you do.

I think no-fault is the best way to go, there are times that exercise
isn't wise.

It's important to rest enough between exercises. It varies not just
with how you feel, but with the history of individual muscles. Muscles
that I've trained recently will respond to being strained by hurting
for between a few hours and a days or two, depending on how recently
tey've been trained. But muscles can easily stay hurt for a week after
being strained if they've been neglected for many years. And strains
in tendons and ligaments, which both strengthen and weaken much more
slowly than muscles, can last very much longer, months up to years.

Sometimes I do exercises twice a day. Sometimes only once a week.

Post by Sue and Kevin Mullen
I spent a good part of the day on the computer and got my exercise
grocery shopping tonight(grin).

I take advantage of food shopping to raise the shopping to a straight
arm above my head when I enter the house. If it's heavy it goes
straight up. Not so heavy it goes up in a circuit with horizontally
outstretched arm. There's lots of little things like that you can fit
into your normal routine. I once had frozen shoulders which made it
hard to reach the top of my head, and I now really appreciate and
enjoy being able to do reaching exercises!

[Chakolate]

Post by soft
I thought I would post early, when I get off here it's my hubbies turn
and I won't be back on. I am going to start dinner and while it is
cooking I am going walk on the elipse for 20 mins. I will be listening
to the cheers to keep me going.

Good for you, Karryl. You have inspired me to go do another five minutes.
Back shortly.


Chakolate

[Chris Malcolm]

Post by Chakolate

Post by Chris Malcolm
I've signed up for a mountain winter skills course (ice axe and
crampon stuff) with some rather younger folk

"rather younger" meaning half your age?

Yup. Same age as my son, who can *run* up hills!

Post by Chakolate

Post by Chris Malcolm
I've wondered whether, being a bloke, I ought to participate in this
exercise thread in asm. I don't want to annoy anyone.

I think you're a welcome addition. If Edna Pearl doeesn't intimidate me,
you haven't got a chance. :-)

Post by Chris Malcolm
I started about two months ago, doing exercises at most for several
minutes two or three times a week. I've also been cycling or walking
up hills when time and weather permitted, but that's not often, less
than once a week. As directed by my doctor I do *not* speed up when
teenage girls whizz past me :-)

LOL!

Post by Chris Malcolm
Indoors I'm doing body-weight-only full bum-on-heel squats, pull ups
from straight arms to nose to bar, and push ups. I started off being
able to do one pushup, only able to hang twitching and kicking as a
"pullup", and 30 squats. I'm now doing three pushups, two pullups, and
60 squats. Not bad so far for being supposedly too old to get much
stronger!

I wish I could do squats. At the moment I'm only able to get about a third
of the way down. That and the fact that I wear bifocals makes it really
hard to read the 'price per unit' info on the bottom shelf. :-p

I suspect I've been helped by my years of bad back (now touch wood
over), when I had to learn to squat instead of bending over, which
would wreck my back.

Post by Chakolate

Post by Chris Malcolm
I think I need to read up on some of the exercises Edna has posted
about, curls and things, and start doing them too. I also need lots of
diverse upper body stuff, right out to forearms and hands, basic
monkey strength stuff. Weights seem to be what folk use for that, but
it seems to me the usual exercise weights are too compact and
in-the-hand to get strength and endurance right out to forearms and
hands. I'm eyeing up a yard of scaffolding pipe for that. I'm also
thinking of a skipping rope for calves.

I hang twitching and kicking from the door frames, which I've been
told are strong enough to support me. The bar sounds interesting,
though.

When all you can is hang and twitch, start by standing on something so
that your elbows are bent at right angles.

The bar was cheap (7 pounds). Cups screw into the door frame, and then
the bar is then unsrewed to expand into a jam fit, easily removed if
you need to.

Post by Chakolate
Skipping
rope is excellent for the calves, but I'm not so sure how hard it'll be on
your toe.

My various pains seem to be at that subtle stage where a bit of
exercise improves them signficantly, and a bit more makes them
worse. My doc said for example that my hip was only going to get worse
the more I used it, but lightly loaded walking plus glucosamine has so
far at least trebled the distance it can handle without distress.

Post by Chakolate
I think it's more important how you use the weights than how they're
configured. Pivot points and all that, you know.

Think of the difference between twisting the wrist holding a 4lb
weight in the hand, and holding one end of a 4lb yard long piece of
scaffolding pipe in the hand!

Post by Chakolate

Post by Chris Malcolm
The heart? It starts going wonky on a hospital cardiograph at over
150bpm. It feels happy but flat out at 140bpm, so I wear a heart
monitor and keep it mostly under 130bpm. Which means I'll probably
have to slow down the squats as they increase, because at 60 squats
I'm already hitting 125bpm.

As they increase your tolerance will also increase, so it may not be as
much of a problem as you think. And are you familiar with the formula for
optimum heart rate? This article tells you how to skip that formula and
http://tinyurl.com/6domg

But I have a dicky heart. I shouldn't push myself like that outside of
a hospital cardiology unit with resuscitation on tap. The limits I've
quoted are what were discovered and recommended in a cardiology heart
stress test. I've had heart attack. It's a frgihtening experience
which strongly encourages a rather cautious approach :-)

Post by Chakolate

Post by Chris Malcolm
When I started this I had a tendency to hurt my knees if I ran down a
flight of stairs. The knees are a lot stronger and harder to hurt now.
I've got to be very careful not to aggravate the heel spur. I'm
wearing podiatrist prescribed arch supports, and it seems to be
getting very slightly better. The problem is that if I favour the spur
I tend to aggravate the arthritic big toe joint, and vice versa. And
if I favour that leg, I aggravate the arthritis in the other hip.

I had the same problem when I had a heel spur and shin splints at the same
time. The best way to avoid/alleviate shin splints is with a strong heel-
and-toe walk, but than irritated the spur. Sigh.

You got rid of the heel spur?

Post by Chakolate

Post by Chris Malcolm
It does begin to look as though I'm not going to get out of here alive
:-)

You never know - there are an awful lot of articles lately on the
possibility that aging is 'treatable'.

You mean like menopause ?-)

[Chakolate]

Post by Chris Malcolm
I suspect I've been helped by my years of bad back (now touch wood
over), when I had to learn to squat instead of bending over, which
would wreck my back.

Funny how things work out, innit? My bad knees now are probably the end
result of many years of obesity, but that obesity probably strengthened my
bones quite a lot. My knees will probably be a lot happier when I lose
more weight, but for the last year or so I've been at 190-200. I need to
get serious about that again.

Post by Chris Malcolm
When all you can is hang and twitch, start by standing on something so
that your elbows are bent at right angles.

Good tip, thanks.

Post by Chris Malcolm
The bar was cheap (7 pounds). Cups screw into the door frame, and then
the bar is then unsrewed to expand into a jam fit, easily removed if
you need to.

I have a similar apparatus for my shower curtain rod, but it wouldn't hold
much weight. Does the product you describe have a generic name?

Post by Chris Malcolm
But I have a dicky heart. I shouldn't push myself like that outside of
a hospital cardiology unit with resuscitation on tap. The limits I've
quoted are what were discovered and recommended in a cardiology heart
stress test. I've had heart attack. It's a frgihtening experience
which strongly encourages a rather cautious approach :-)

Oops, sorry! I forgot your previous heart troubles.

Post by Chris Malcolm
You got rid of the heel spur?

It no longer bothers me, after a couple of years of being sure I had
cushioning on my heels *always*. There was something about the idea of
getting an injection (cortisone?) in my heel that made me decide I could
handle it on my own. :-)



Chakolate

[Chris Malcolm]

Post by Chakolate

Post by Chris Malcolm
The bar was cheap (7 pounds). Cups screw into the door frame, and then
the bar is then unsrewed to expand into a jam fit, easily removed if
you need to.

I have a similar apparatus for my shower curtain rod, but it wouldn't hold
much weight. Does the product you describe have a generic name?

Just like a *very* tough curtain rod. IIRC it was called a pullup bar
or an exercise bar. I found it alongside other home exercise
machinery. It was the cheapest thing there :-)

[Chakolate]

Post by Chris Malcolm
Just like a *very* tough curtain rod. IIRC it was called a pullup bar
or an exercise bar. I found it alongside other home exercise
machinery. It was the cheapest thing there :-)

I found a couple of entries on Froogle under 'pullup bar' but they need
screwing into the door frame. Is that what you meant?

Chakolate

[Jette Goldie]

Post by Chakolate

Post by Chris Malcolm
Just like a *very* tough curtain rod. IIRC it was called a pullup bar
or an exercise bar. I found it alongside other home exercise
machinery. It was the cheapest thing there :-)

I found a couple of entries on Froogle under 'pullup bar' but they need
screwing into the door frame. Is that what you meant?

There's a little cup you screw into each side of the door frame - doesn't
stop the door closing - and the bar sits in the cups. Secure. The one
we have also has little stoppers that you screw in further down so the
bar can be used for sit ups as well.

[Chris Malcolm]

Post by Chakolate

Post by Chris Malcolm
I suspect I've been helped by my years of bad back (now touch wood
over), when I had to learn to squat instead of bending over, which
would wreck my back.

Funny how things work out, innit? My bad knees now are probably the end
result of many years of obesity, but that obesity probably strengthened my
bones quite a lot. My knees will probably be a lot happier when I lose
more weight, but for the last year or so I've been at 190-200. I need to
get serious about that again.

I recall a friend whose doctor told her she was two stones overweight
(stone = 14lbs). She wondered what this meant, and experimentally
weighed her vaccuum cleaner. One stone. "So," she thought, "when I go
out shopping, before I've picked up a single bag I'm already carrying
two vaccuum cleaners with me everywhere I go! No wonder my knees hurt!
No wonder the stairs exhaust me!" That motivated her to lose the
weight.

[Chakolate]

Post by Chris Malcolm
I recall a friend whose doctor told her she was two stones overweight
(stone = 14lbs). She wondered what this meant, and experimentally
weighed her vaccuum cleaner. One stone. "So," she thought, "when I go
out shopping, before I've picked up a single bag I'm already carrying
two vaccuum cleaners with me everywhere I go! No wonder my knees hurt!
No wonder the stairs exhaust me!" That motivated her to lose the
weight.

When I had lost about 50 pounds, a little friend was visiting, and I gave
her a shoulder ride. My knees started complaining just like they had
before. She weighed about 40 pounds, then.

I told Vivi I had lost a whole her, and that I was going to lose another
one. She thought (as usual) that I was a very silly person. :-)

Chakolate

[Chris Malcolm]

Chris Malcolm <***@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> wrote:

Update:

At start: 1 pushup, no pullups, 30 squats.
last post: 3 pushups, 2 pullups, 60 squats.
Now: 4 pushups, 3 pullups, and 100 squats.

Post by Chris Malcolm
The heart? It starts going wonky on a hospital cardiograph at over
150bpm. It feels happy but flat out at 140bpm, so I wear a heart
monitor and keep it mostly under 130bpm. Which means I'll probably
have to slow down the squats as they increase, because at 60 squats
I'm already hitting 125bpm.

I've had to drop the squat rate a bit to keep the heart rate down. I
now do about 15 slow ones a minute. That of course has made it easier
to do more :-) My 100 squats took the heart rate to 133bpm. I'll let
it go to 140bpm before I cut the squat rate down any more.

Incidentally, I have a tendency to skipped heart beats, actually a
small premature beat which you don't notice so easily, so it feels
like a skipped beat. Feels unpleasant and usually causes me to stop
and rest.

In the past I've noticed that increasing my amount of exercise
substantially has made this tendency go away, i.e., it seems to happen
when I've been relatively idle for too long. When I started these
exercises I suffered these occasional unpleasant skipped beats,
sometimes as much as skipping every third beat. I'm pleased to be able
to report that this current bout of increased exercise has made the
heart settle down, and there are now no more skipped beats. Feels a
lot more robust.

A good side effect of the pullups is straightening my spine. I begin
by dangling loosely from my arms and stretching, and stretch out
completely between each pull. To begin with there were quite a lot of
little clicks and pops in various parts of the spine. These are now
much less frequent, and I feel straighter and taller as well as
stronger. For example I'm now naturally going up stairs noticeably
faster.

[Edna Pearl]

That's fantastic, Chris -- especially about the spine straightening from the
pullups. Sometimes the simplest things (like just hanging there) can create
very startling results.

Personally, I think you might arguably being overdoing it on the squats?
Three sets of 8 should be plenty, and if that's easy for you, add a barbell
and some weights. Then increase the weight every time it becomes easy for
you to do 12 reps at that weight.

Endless low-weight reps generally don't increase strength, and I wouldn't
recommend you do squats for cardio. We're less likely to injure ourselves
if we do our cardio without weight, for a couple of reasons. One, the
weight makes it more likely you'll injure yourself if your form is sloppy.
Second, the weight makes your muscles more tired, which makes it more likely
your form will get sloppy, which makes it more likely you'll injure
yourself. So it makes sense to do low-impact cardio until you get the
training effect you're after, and to do your cardio on different days from
your strength-training, to be sure you're not wearing yourself out with one
for the other (and thus increasing your likelihood of injury with weight or
decreasing the effectiveness of your cardio with muscle fatigue).

There are good discussions of squat form and rep efficacy at
http://www.trygve.com/pointer.html.

Any thoughts?

ep
(Who is wearing her exercise clothes for the first time in days, and is
feeling discouraged at the loss of strength she experienced during her
period, just as she always does after her period.)

Post by Chris Malcolm
At start: 1 pushup, no pullups, 30 squats.
last post: 3 pushups, 2 pullups, 60 squats.
Now: 4 pushups, 3 pullups, and 100 squats.

Post by Chris Malcolm
The heart? It starts going wonky on a hospital cardiograph at over
150bpm. It feels happy but flat out at 140bpm, so I wear a heart
monitor and keep it mostly under 130bpm. Which means I'll probably
have to slow down the squats as they increase, because at 60 squats
I'm already hitting 125bpm.

I've had to drop the squat rate a bit to keep the heart rate down. I
now do about 15 slow ones a minute. That of course has made it easier
to do more :-) My 100 squats took the heart rate to 133bpm. I'll let
it go to 140bpm before I cut the squat rate down any more.
Incidentally, I have a tendency to skipped heart beats, actually a
small premature beat which you don't notice so easily, so it feels
like a skipped beat. Feels unpleasant and usually causes me to stop
and rest.
In the past I've noticed that increasing my amount of exercise
substantially has made this tendency go away, i.e., it seems to happen
when I've been relatively idle for too long. When I started these
exercises I suffered these occasional unpleasant skipped beats,
sometimes as much as skipping every third beat. I'm pleased to be able
to report that this current bout of increased exercise has made the
heart settle down, and there are now no more skipped beats. Feels a
lot more robust.
A good side effect of the pullups is straightening my spine. I begin
by dangling loosely from my arms and stretching, and stretch out
completely between each pull. To begin with there were quite a lot of
little clicks and pops in various parts of the spine. These are now
much less frequent, and I feel straighter and taller as well as
stronger. For example I'm now naturally going up stairs noticeably
faster.
--
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

[Chakolate]

Post by Edna Pearl
(Who is wearing her exercise clothes for the first time in days, and is
feeling discouraged at the loss of strength she experienced during her
period, just as she always does after her period.)

Ah, but you're back in the saddle (forgive the expression!) and that's what
counts.

As for me, all day Sunday and Monday were spent doing pullups, pushups,
running and stair-climbing. That is, I pulled Tristan (age 4) up and
twirled him around, I pushed Sophie (age 15 months, but the size of a two-
year-old) up into the air to make her squeal with delight, I ran around
after the two of them, and took enough stairs to make my legs tired today.
All in all, the best sort of exercise.

Today I'll be back on the machine, which has done very well by my knee -
I'm taking stairs almost normally, which is record-time recovery for me.
Yay!

I also got on the scales Sunday and I've lost a pound. :-)

Chakolate

[Chris Malcolm]

Post by Edna Pearl

Post by Chris Malcolm
At start: 1 pushup, no pullups, 30 squats.
last post: 3 pushups, 2 pullups, 60 squats.
Now: 4 pushups, 3 pullups, and 100 squats.
I've had to drop the squat rate a bit to keep the heart rate down. I
now do about 15 slow ones a minute. That of course has made it easier
to do more :-) My 100 squats took the heart rate to 133bpm. I'll let
it go to 140bpm before I cut the squat rate down any more.
A good side effect of the pullups is straightening my spine. I begin
by dangling loosely from my arms and stretching, and stretch out
completely between each pull. To begin with there were quite a lot of
little clicks and pops in various parts of the spine. These are now
much less frequent, and I feel straighter and taller as well as
stronger.

That's fantastic, Chris -- especially about the spine straightening from the
pullups. Sometimes the simplest things (like just hanging there) can create
very startling results.
Personally, I think you might arguably being overdoing it on the squats?
Three sets of 8 should be plenty, and if that's easy for you, add a barbell
and some weights. Then increase the weight every time it becomes easy for
you to do 12 reps at that weight.

But I don't *need* more leg strength as much as I need endurance: I
can carry as heavy weights as I want to for short distances, but
carrying nothing but me I can't walk up a steep hill without needing
breaks, because my legs simply give out.

Also, being the age I am (62), with some joint pains, I'm very
cautious about not increasing muscles too fast before the joints and
tendons catch up. I'm against the usual gym philosophy of aiming for
bigger muscles. Bigger muscles are just extra weight to have to carry
around. I aim to get the most out of the smallest muscles, and all
they need to be capable of is carrying my own weight plus a bit of
luggage, but doing it for long periods without fatigue. I need more
arm and grip strength, but little if any extra leg strength.

Post by Edna Pearl
Endless low-weight reps generally don't increase strength, and I
wouldn't recommend you do squats for cardio. We're less likely to
injure ourselves if we do our cardio without weight, for a couple of
reasons. One, the weight makes it more likely you'll injure
yourself if your form is sloppy. Second, the weight makes your
muscles more tired, which makes it more likely your form will get
sloppy, which makes it more likely you'll injure yourself. So it
makes sense to do low-impact cardio until you get the training
effect you're after, to be sure you're not wearing yourself out with
one for the other (and thus increasing your likelihood of injury
with weight or decreasing the effectiveness of your cardio with
muscle fatigue).

But my no-weight squats are doing just what you recommend! Cardio and
endurance with least strength effect!

Leg muscles are big, and increasing their size will make me
significantly heavier, which will mean the arms will need to be a lot
stronger to lift the extra weight. Going after strength is for me a
self-defeating vicious circle, because I define my strength not with
respect to barbell weights, but simply with respect to my own weight.
And being being heavier puts more strain on my heart and joints. So
for long term long lasting fitness I should aim for the minimum
muscles which will do the necessary job. That means being careful not
to strengthen anything (such as legs) more than necessary.

Post by Edna Pearl
There are good discussions of squat form and rep efficacy at
http://www.trygve.com/pointer.html.
Any thoughts?

Thanks, lots and lots of useful info there! But I do note that most of
it is aimed at cosmetic body building or muscular strength building,
neither of which interests me, except insofar as some increase in
strength will be necessary to get the endurance I want.

[Edna Pearl]

Post by Chris Malcolm
But my no-weight squats are doing just what you recommend! Cardio and
endurance with least strength effect!

Not exactly :-)

A squat not the *least* weight you could be ask your joints to be carrying
at the *safest* angle. In particular, squats tend to put extra pressure on
the knees because of the geometry of the motion. (To help avoid injury,
avoid letting your knees, at their lowest, extend beyond your toes.)

Furthermore, a squat is not the *best* (most efficient) exercise for cardio
training. Brisk walking would be more efficient for cardio, for most of us.
By brisk, I mean a pace at which you can talk comfortably, but just barely,
with a little shortness of breath. It should also make you sweat.
Swimming, running, jumping rope, aerobics classes, bicycling, step training,
and about a zillion other programs :-) are effective and efficient cardio
training. (Please note that swimming does not build bone strength, unlike
the weight-lifting and the other cardios I've mentioned.) (And stay away
from Stairmasters if you have knee problems.)

I understand that you don't want to bulk up, but increasing weight does not
make you bulk up unless you specifically design your training program to
bulk up. In fact, most people *can't* bulk up (they are "hard gainers")
without a whole lot of expert training and hard work.

Repeating squats without increasing the weight will help you maintain your
quads' strength, but you don't have to do a hundred of them for that --
three sets of 12 should accomplish the same degree of strength preservation.
Doing more than that may risk injury to your leg and foot joints and I'd
feel I was being remiss if I didn't recommend against it.

That said, if you have absolute confidence in your leg and foot joints
(especially your knees) and you simply love doing squats, far be it from me
to tell you to stop. I'm just a well-intentioned lay person who has spent a
lot of time in the gym, asking questions, and reading about this stuff. You
do whatever makes you happy, especially if it means exercising safely!

ep

[Chris Malcolm]

Post by Edna Pearl

Post by Chris Malcolm
But my no-weight squats are doing just what you recommend! Cardio and
endurance with least strength effect!

Not exactly :-)
A squat not the *least* weight you could be ask your joints to be carrying
at the *safest* angle. In particular, squats tend to put extra pressure on
the knees because of the geometry of the motion. (To help avoid injury,
avoid letting your knees, at their lowest, extend beyond your toes.)

I think that applies to folk whose knees are in worse shape than
mine. My squats are those called "Hindu squats", where you go right
down until your bum touches your heels and your knees are as far ahead
of your toes as possible. Then you pause slightly, to avoid "cheating"
by using bounce to get you started back up, i.e., you put the maximum
possible strain on the knees. That's dangerous for folk with weak
knees, but for me it's a knee strengthening exercise.

Post by Edna Pearl
Furthermore, a squat is not the *best* (most efficient) exercise for cardio
training.

Not meant to be. I'm doing it for leg muscle endurance and knee
strength, with a bit of cardio simply thrown in as a side effect.

Post by Edna Pearl
Brisk walking would be more efficient for cardio, for most of us.
By brisk, I mean a pace at which you can talk comfortably, but just barely,
with a little shortness of breath. It should also make you sweat.

Brisk walking can't do that for me unless I'm going up a hill, unless
you mean that funny kind of unnatural hip rolling very fast walk which
some people do competitively.

Post by Edna Pearl
I understand that you don't want to bulk up, but increasing weight does not
make you bulk up unless you specifically design your training program to
bulk up. In fact, most people *can't* bulk up (they are "hard gainers")
without a whole lot of expert training and hard work.

Because I've always been a skinny ectomorph most of my life, I suspect
I'm a "hard gainer". When I talk about putting on extra muscle I don't
mean the big bulky muscles of the body builders, I simply mean the
little extra muscle which I do put on as I get stronger, which is
probably not enough for anyone to notice by looking at me in my
clothes. For example, if I lost 15lbs of fat and put on 15lbs of
muscle I'd end up looking thinner and less bulky.

Post by Edna Pearl
Repeating squats without increasing the weight will help you maintain your
quads' strength, but you don't have to do a hundred of them for that --
three sets of 12 should accomplish the same degree of strength preservation.

I'm not trying to *preserve* strength. They have enough strength. I'm
trying to increase endurance, how long they can keep going.

Post by Edna Pearl
Doing more than that may risk injury to your leg and foot joints and I'd
feel I was being remiss if I didn't recommend against it.

But I have a *purpose* behind my training: I want to able to walk up
and down hill all day with a rucksack. The only way to develop that
kind endurance is to train for it, which means *lots* of reps. A few
dozen reps with weights in a gym is useless strength for what I want
to do.

I can tell that what I'm doing is increasing the strength of my knees,
because it's now much harder to hurt my knees when going down steep
hills in rough country. I used to have to use walking poles to stop
from hurting them when going down steep hills, now I never use the
poles, and go down faster and harder, with no pain at all. in fact I'm
starting to stop being scared of jumping down, because it used to hurt
my knees, and now it doesn't. I'm not worried about my ankles,
because I've always had very strong ankles which strength I've been
careful to preserve by exercise. It protects against ankle turning.

Post by Edna Pearl
That said, if you have absolute confidence in your leg and foot joints
(especially your knees) and you simply love doing squats, far be it from me
to tell you to stop.

I don't have unfounded confidence. I have confidence based on careful
personal experiment and evaluation. I've recovered from nasty injuries
I wasn't supposed to recover from by being very careful and listening
to my body. That means being very gentle when necessary, and being
pretty robust once you can take it. I don't have absolute confidence
in anything. I'm a cautious experimenter, and I'm especially cautious
because I know how much more slowly ligament, tendon, and joint
strength develops than does muscle strength.

Post by Edna Pearl
I'm just a well-intentioned lay person who has spent a
lot of time in the gym, asking questions, and reading about this stuff.

Yes, but folk in gyms tell you that doing Hundu squats will kill your
knees, and in fact they're strengthening mine. I don't have much time
for folk whose advice contradicts my own personal experience. I'm not
aiming for gym strength, I'm aiming for out in the hills strength,
which is different.

Post by Edna Pearl
You
do whatever makes you happy, especially if it means exercising safely!

Thanks for the comments. I certainly wouldn't advise anyone else to do
what I'm doing. It works for me because of my unusual history.

[kathryn]

Post by Chris Malcolm

Post by Edna Pearl

Post by Chris Malcolm
But my no-weight squats are doing just what you recommend! Cardio and
endurance with least strength effect!

Not exactly :-)
A squat not the *least* weight you could be ask your joints to be carrying
at the *safest* angle. In particular, squats tend to put extra pressure on
the knees because of the geometry of the motion. (To help avoid injury,
avoid letting your knees, at their lowest, extend beyond your toes.)

I think that applies to folk whose knees are in worse shape than
mine.
My squats are those called "Hindu squats", where you go right
down until your bum touches your heels and your knees are as far ahead
of your toes as possible. Then you pause slightly, to avoid "cheating"
by using bounce to get you started back up, i.e., you put the maximum
possible strain on the knees. That's dangerous for folk with weak
knees, but for me it's a knee strengthening exercise.

Perhaps this is a gender thing? Different hip geometry? Trained
exercise instuctors in classes I attend all say to to make sure the
knees do not extend over the toes. That rule is for everyone.

Another new trule is that those with osteoporosis or low bone density
should not do any exercises where the arms are raised over the head as
this may twist the back, something to avoid.

Kathryn

Post by Chris Malcolm

Post by Edna Pearl
Furthermore, a squat is not the *best* (most efficient) exercise for cardio
training.

Not meant to be. I'm doing it for leg muscle endurance and knee
strength, with a bit of cardio simply thrown in as a side effect.

Post by Edna Pearl
Brisk walking would be more efficient for cardio, for most of us.
By brisk, I mean a pace at which you can talk comfortably, but just barely,
with a little shortness of breath. It should also make you sweat.

Brisk walking can't do that for me unless I'm going up a hill, unless
you mean that funny kind of unnatural hip rolling very fast walk which
some people do competitively.

Post by Edna Pearl
I understand that you don't want to bulk up, but increasing weight does not
make you bulk up unless you specifically design your training program to
bulk up. In fact, most people *can't* bulk up (they are "hard gainers")
without a whole lot of expert training and hard work.

Because I've always been a skinny ectomorph most of my life, I suspect
I'm a "hard gainer". When I talk about putting on extra muscle I don't
mean the big bulky muscles of the body builders, I simply mean the
little extra muscle which I do put on as I get stronger, which is
probably not enough for anyone to notice by looking at me in my
clothes. For example, if I lost 15lbs of fat and put on 15lbs of
muscle I'd end up looking thinner and less bulky.

Post by Edna Pearl
Repeating squats without increasing the weight will help you maintain your
quads' strength, but you don't have to do a hundred of them for that --
three sets of 12 should accomplish the same degree of strength preservation.

I'm not trying to *preserve* strength. They have enough strength. I'm
trying to increase endurance, how long they can keep going.

Post by Edna Pearl
Doing more than that may risk injury to your leg and foot joints and I'd
feel I was being remiss if I didn't recommend against it.

But I have a *purpose* behind my training: I want to able to walk up
and down hill all day with a rucksack. The only way to develop that
kind endurance is to train for it, which means *lots* of reps. A few
dozen reps with weights in a gym is useless strength for what I want
to do.
I can tell that what I'm doing is increasing the strength of my knees,
because it's now much harder to hurt my knees when going down steep
hills in rough country. I used to have to use walking poles to stop
from hurting them when going down steep hills, now I never use the
poles, and go down faster and harder, with no pain at all. in fact I'm
starting to stop being scared of jumping down, because it used to hurt
my knees, and now it doesn't. I'm not worried about my ankles,
because I've always had very strong ankles which strength I've been
careful to preserve by exercise. It protects against ankle turning.

Post by Edna Pearl
That said, if you have absolute confidence in your leg and foot joints
(especially your knees) and you simply love doing squats, far be it from me
to tell you to stop.

I don't have unfounded confidence. I have confidence based on careful
personal experiment and evaluation. I've recovered from nasty injuries
I wasn't supposed to recover from by being very careful and listening
to my body. That means being very gentle when necessary, and being
pretty robust once you can take it. I don't have absolute confidence
in anything. I'm a cautious experimenter, and I'm especially cautious
because I know how much more slowly ligament, tendon, and joint
strength develops than does muscle strength.

Post by Edna Pearl
I'm just a well-intentioned lay person who has spent a
lot of time in the gym, asking questions, and reading about this stuff.

Yes, but folk in gyms tell you that doing Hundu squats will kill your
knees, and in fact they're strengthening mine. I don't have much time
for folk whose advice contradicts my own personal experience. I'm not
aiming for gym strength, I'm aiming for out in the hills strength,
which is different.

Post by Edna Pearl
You
do whatever makes you happy, especially if it means exercising safely!

Thanks for the comments. I certainly wouldn't advise anyone else to do
what I'm doing. It works for me because of my unusual history.

[Chris Malcolm]

Post by kathryn

Post by Chris Malcolm

Post by Edna Pearl

Post by Chris Malcolm
But my no-weight squats are doing just what you recommend! Cardio and
endurance with least strength effect!

Not exactly :-)
A squat not the *least* weight you could be ask your joints to be carrying
at the *safest* angle. In particular, squats tend to put extra pressure on
the knees because of the geometry of the motion. (To help avoid injury,
avoid letting your knees, at their lowest, extend beyond your toes.)

I think that applies to folk whose knees are in worse shape than
mine.
My squats are those called "Hindu squats", where you go right
down until your bum touches your heels and your knees are as far ahead
of your toes as possible. Then you pause slightly, to avoid "cheating"
by using bounce to get you started back up, i.e., you put the maximum
possible strain on the knees. That's dangerous for folk with weak
knees, but for me it's a knee strengthening exercise.

Perhaps this is a gender thing? Different hip geometry? Trained
exercise instuctors in classes I attend all say to to make sure the
knees do not extend over the toes. That rule is for everyone.

I've just walked up the stairs to my bedroom, two steps at a time, as
I've done all my life, this time looking carefully at my toes and
knees. With care I could get my knees not to extend beyond my toes,
but only just. Since I've never lived in a house without stairs, nor
worked in an office without stairs, and always do stairs two at a
time, on purpose, for exercise, I've effectively been doing dozens of
*one-legged* squats like that every day of my life, except when I've
been ill in bed.

Those of us who deliberately do stairs two at a time have therefore
effectively been doing twice the knee strain your gym instructors
think the advisable limit, and doing it every day for most of our
lives.

I can still do a *one-legged* deep squat, just, without hurting my
knees. In other words, when I do a deep two-legged squat, I'm doing
only half my maximum weight, and I can do 100 of them. I don't think
I'm doing something risky for *me* if I can do 100 reps or twice the
weight. OTOH, plenty of folk my age struggle a bit to get up out of a
deep armchair, and they certainly ought to obey the knee-toe squat
rule when they start to exercise.

Is this a gender thing? Well, when I was 45, and worked in an office
three flights of stairs up, there was an old lady of 60 who used to
love overtaking me on the stairs, taking them two at a time. She was
fitter than most women half her age, and fitter than me. I couldn't
beat her in a race up the stairs, which we did sometimes when nobody
else was around to embarrass us. Most of her colleagues thought she
was seriously weird at the age of 60 to be wearing jeans and T shirt,
long grey hair, have a good athletic shape, and be running up stairs
for fun, quite apart from the fact that she was also a mathematician
and computer programmer.

Female competitive ice skaters do one-legged deep squats on ice, while
maintaining perfect balance on one skate, which you certainly can't do
if it's a struggle. It's an elementary move you have to master.

I'm sure the rule of your gym instructors is simply a wise rule to
apply to everyone when you don't know their condition. There are a
number of sports where you need to be able to seriously break that
rule, women as well as men.

[Edna Pearl]

I agree, Chris, it's not a gender thing. The general rule is to avoid
extending the knee beyond the toe in squats, male or female. I never heard
of a Hindu squat, though, and if you've got strong knees and the wisdom of
experience, that's great. Go for it!

I was just thinking it might be nice for the Exercise Club to have a thread
where we state our goals. Maybe I'll start one.

ep

Post by Chris Malcolm

Post by kathryn

Post by Chris Malcolm

Post by Edna Pearl

Post by Chris Malcolm
But my no-weight squats are doing just what you recommend! Cardio and
endurance with least strength effect!

Not exactly :-)
A squat not the *least* weight you could be ask your joints to be carrying
at the *safest* angle. In particular, squats tend to put extra pressure on
the knees because of the geometry of the motion. (To help avoid injury,
avoid letting your knees, at their lowest, extend beyond your toes.)

I think that applies to folk whose knees are in worse shape than
mine.
My squats are those called "Hindu squats", where you go right
down until your bum touches your heels and your knees are as far ahead
of your toes as possible. Then you pause slightly, to avoid "cheating"
by using bounce to get you started back up, i.e., you put the maximum
possible strain on the knees. That's dangerous for folk with weak
knees, but for me it's a knee strengthening exercise.

Perhaps this is a gender thing? Different hip geometry? Trained
exercise instuctors in classes I attend all say to to make sure the
knees do not extend over the toes. That rule is for everyone.

I've just walked up the stairs to my bedroom, two steps at a time, as
I've done all my life, this time looking carefully at my toes and
knees. With care I could get my knees not to extend beyond my toes,
but only just. Since I've never lived in a house without stairs, nor
worked in an office without stairs, and always do stairs two at a
time, on purpose, for exercise, I've effectively been doing dozens of
*one-legged* squats like that every day of my life, except when I've
been ill in bed.
Those of us who deliberately do stairs two at a time have therefore
effectively been doing twice the knee strain your gym instructors
think the advisable limit, and doing it every day for most of our
lives.
I can still do a *one-legged* deep squat, just, without hurting my
knees. In other words, when I do a deep two-legged squat, I'm doing
only half my maximum weight, and I can do 100 of them. I don't think
I'm doing something risky for *me* if I can do 100 reps or twice the
weight. OTOH, plenty of folk my age struggle a bit to get up out of a
deep armchair, and they certainly ought to obey the knee-toe squat
rule when they start to exercise.
Is this a gender thing? Well, when I was 45, and worked in an office
three flights of stairs up, there was an old lady of 60 who used to
love overtaking me on the stairs, taking them two at a time. She was
fitter than most women half her age, and fitter than me. I couldn't
beat her in a race up the stairs, which we did sometimes when nobody
else was around to embarrass us. Most of her colleagues thought she
was seriously weird at the age of 60 to be wearing jeans and T shirt,
long grey hair, have a good athletic shape, and be running up stairs
for fun, quite apart from the fact that she was also a mathematician
and computer programmer.
Female competitive ice skaters do one-legged deep squats on ice, while
maintaining perfect balance on one skate, which you certainly can't do
if it's a struggle. It's an elementary move you have to master.
I'm sure the rule of your gym instructors is simply a wise rule to
apply to everyone when you don't know their condition. There are a
number of sports where you need to be able to seriously break that
rule, women as well as men.
--
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

[Chris Malcolm]

Post by Edna Pearl
I agree, Chris, it's not a gender thing. The general rule is to avoid
extending the knee beyond the toe in squats, male or female. I never heard
of a Hindu squat, though, and if you've got strong knees and the wisdom of
experience, that's great. Go for it!

I didn't know they were called "Hindu squats", or any general advice
about them, until I consulted the web a week ago. I was simply doing
them because I've always included them in my exercises because in past
lives I've been a skater and a climber, and most of the climbers and
skaters I knew who did exercises did these squats. You *need* that
kind of movement and knee strength in these sports.

I find on the web that most of those who recommend them do so because
they have very specific sport or task based fitness requirements, such
as rock climbing, skating, or martial arts, and have come to have
doubts about the more usual kind of gym squats for those particular
purposes. I have sympathy with their arguments.

Extracts from <http://www.stadion.com/column_stretch22.html>

"Hindu squat. Start standing up, back straight, head up, chest up,
feet hip-width apart. Feet point forward or slightly out, reach
forward with your arms and then pull back as in a rowing motion until
your fists are even with your chest. As you pull your arms back,
inhale. Start to exhale and squat down letting your arms fall behind
your hips. As you squat your heels raise off the floor so you are
squatting on the balls of your feet. Squat as low as you can but do
not bounce at the bottom. Rise up, simultaneously reaching forward
with your arms as you inhale. The breathing pattern is opposite that
of standard squats (without those rowing arm movements) and squats
with weights. Throughout the whole squat keep your back
straight. Repeat the cycle."

"Hindu squats should be done fairly fast and in large numbers. One
hundred Hindu squats should take less than 3 minutes. At the beginning
though, you should do as many as you can do comfortably and go as slow
as it takes."

[I do them at less than half that speed for heart reasons.]

"Squats without additional resistance (weight), such as Hindu squats,
strengthen knee ligaments, develop muscular endurance in the lower
body, and improve lung function. This is why these squats, called
baithak, together with one more exercise -- Hindu push ups -- are an
indispensable part of Indian wrestlers' training. These wrestlers,
famous for their stamina, do several hundred deep squats every day
(Draeger and Smith 1974). Squats with weights increase muscle and bone
mass of your whole body, not just of thighs and hips but of the trunk,
chest, shoulders, and neck. This is because squats with weights put
heavy stress on a majority of skeletal muscles and most of the
bones. The greater muscle mass mobilized in an exercise, the greater
are the releases of hormones promoting growth of muscles, bones, and
other fibrous connective tissues (Conroy and Earle 1994; Kraemer
1994)."

Which lends support to my intuition that if I want to avoid developing
muscle as much as possible, aiming for the maximum stamina with the
minimum muscle, I should go for low weights and high reps.

Why minimum muscle? Because that means minimum weight, which means the
least stress on aging bones, joints, and cardiovascular system. The
fashionable way to develop the strength to lift 100lbs 100s of times
is to develop the strength to lift 200lbs a few times, so that 100lbs
is trivially easy. The other way is to develop maximum efficiency,
i.e. vascularisation, in muscles which can only lift say 130lbs. That
way you end up lighter in weight, which means your other body carrying
muscles don't need to be as strong to carry those muscles, and so
on. It's a virtuous circle of trimming down weight when you get
effectively stronger in terms of carrying your own body around by
losing weight rather than adding muscle.

The starting point is to define strength in terms of your own body
weight instead of absolute gym weights. You don't say "I can lift
200lbs 10 times", you say "I can lift my own body weight 10
times". Hence the importance of exercises based on your own body
weight, such as Hindu squats, pull ups, etc.. You factor your whole
body into the strength equation.

[Edna Pearl]

Wow, that really is a whole 'nother animal from Olympic or power-lifting
"gym" squats. It does sound like a good, targeted exercise if the knees can
handle it. The "instructions" don't specify that you should be looking
forward or upward while doing the Hindu squat, but it looks like the posture
described would kind of force you to keep your head erect.

Thanks for taking the time to quote the move. I'll try it tomorrow to see
how it feels.

ep

Post by Chris Malcolm

Post by Edna Pearl
I agree, Chris, it's not a gender thing. The general rule is to avoid
extending the knee beyond the toe in squats, male or female. I never heard
of a Hindu squat, though, and if you've got strong knees and the wisdom of
experience, that's great. Go for it!

I didn't know they were called "Hindu squats", or any general advice
about them, until I consulted the web a week ago. I was simply doing
them because I've always included them in my exercises because in past
lives I've been a skater and a climber, and most of the climbers and
skaters I knew who did exercises did these squats. You *need* that
kind of movement and knee strength in these sports.
I find on the web that most of those who recommend them do so because
they have very specific sport or task based fitness requirements, such
as rock climbing, skating, or martial arts, and have come to have
doubts about the more usual kind of gym squats for those particular
purposes. I have sympathy with their arguments.
Extracts from <http://www.stadion.com/column_stretch22.html>
"Hindu squat. Start standing up, back straight, head up, chest up,
feet hip-width apart. Feet point forward or slightly out, reach
forward with your arms and then pull back as in a rowing motion until
your fists are even with your chest. As you pull your arms back,
inhale. Start to exhale and squat down letting your arms fall behind
your hips. As you squat your heels raise off the floor so you are
squatting on the balls of your feet. Squat as low as you can but do
not bounce at the bottom. Rise up, simultaneously reaching forward
with your arms as you inhale. The breathing pattern is opposite that
of standard squats (without those rowing arm movements) and squats
with weights. Throughout the whole squat keep your back
straight. Repeat the cycle."
"Hindu squats should be done fairly fast and in large numbers. One
hundred Hindu squats should take less than 3 minutes. At the beginning
though, you should do as many as you can do comfortably and go as slow
as it takes."
[I do them at less than half that speed for heart reasons.]
"Squats without additional resistance (weight), such as Hindu squats,
strengthen knee ligaments, develop muscular endurance in the lower
body, and improve lung function. This is why these squats, called
baithak, together with one more exercise -- Hindu push ups -- are an
indispensable part of Indian wrestlers' training. These wrestlers,
famous for their stamina, do several hundred deep squats every day
(Draeger and Smith 1974). Squats with weights increase muscle and bone
mass of your whole body, not just of thighs and hips but of the trunk,
chest, shoulders, and neck. This is because squats with weights put
heavy stress on a majority of skeletal muscles and most of the
bones. The greater muscle mass mobilized in an exercise, the greater
are the releases of hormones promoting growth of muscles, bones, and
other fibrous connective tissues (Conroy and Earle 1994; Kraemer
1994)."
Which lends support to my intuition that if I want to avoid developing
muscle as much as possible, aiming for the maximum stamina with the
minimum muscle, I should go for low weights and high reps.
Why minimum muscle? Because that means minimum weight, which means the
least stress on aging bones, joints, and cardiovascular system. The
fashionable way to develop the strength to lift 100lbs 100s of times
is to develop the strength to lift 200lbs a few times, so that 100lbs
is trivially easy. The other way is to develop maximum efficiency,
i.e. vascularisation, in muscles which can only lift say 130lbs. That
way you end up lighter in weight, which means your other body carrying
muscles don't need to be as strong to carry those muscles, and so
on. It's a virtuous circle of trimming down weight when you get
effectively stronger in terms of carrying your own body around by
losing weight rather than adding muscle.
The starting point is to define strength in terms of your own body
weight instead of absolute gym weights. You don't say "I can lift
200lbs 10 times", you say "I can lift my own body weight 10
times". Hence the importance of exercises based on your own body
weight, such as Hindu squats, pull ups, etc.. You factor your whole
body into the strength equation.
--
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

[Chakolate]

Post by Chris Malcolm
"Hindu squat. Start standing up, back straight, head up, chest up,
feet hip-width apart. Feet point forward or slightly out, reach
forward with your arms and then pull back as in a rowing motion until
your fists are even with your chest. As you pull your arms back,
inhale. Start to exhale and squat down letting your arms fall behind
your hips. As you squat your heels raise off the floor so you are
squatting on the balls of your feet. Squat as low as you can but do
not bounce at the bottom. Rise up, simultaneously reaching forward
with your arms as you inhale. The breathing pattern is opposite that
of standard squats (without those rowing arm movements) and squats
with weights. Throughout the whole squat keep your back
straight. Repeat the cycle."

Wow - I just tried that, and while I could only get about a third or a half
of the way down, I could feel that it would be very valuable. I think I'll
be adding that to my daily quota.

I'll let you know if I ever get all the way down. :-)

Chakolate

[Chris Malcolm]

Post by Chakolate

Post by Chris Malcolm
"Hindu squat. Start standing up, back straight, head up, chest up,
feet hip-width apart. Feet point forward or slightly out, reach
forward with your arms and then pull back as in a rowing motion until
your fists are even with your chest. As you pull your arms back,
inhale. Start to exhale and squat down letting your arms fall behind
your hips. As you squat your heels raise off the floor so you are
squatting on the balls of your feet. Squat as low as you can but do
not bounce at the bottom. Rise up, simultaneously reaching forward
with your arms as you inhale. The breathing pattern is opposite that
of standard squats (without those rowing arm movements) and squats
with weights. Throughout the whole squat keep your back
straight. Repeat the cycle."

Wow - I just tried that, and while I could only get about a third or a half
of the way down, I could feel that it would be very valuable. I think I'll
be adding that to my daily quota.

Wait! There must be a good reason why there exists this squat rule
about not going down further than letting the knee get past the toe in
line of sight, and there must be a good reason why Hindu squats can
break this rule. In other words, there must be something dangerous
about deep squats, and something which allows Hindu squats to break
this rule safely.

I suggest it's reps. In traditional weight work they seem to think
it's ok to shift up to a higher weight if you can do, say, more than a
dozen reps of something. Whereas you're meant to do very high reps of
Hindu squats.

Knees are notoriously easily damaged, especially by those who haven't
done much heavy knee exercsing for a long time and who suddenly start
an exercise programme.

Now, you can't do one deep squat. So your muscles aren't up to the
strain. And if your muscles aren't up to it, then it's very likely
that all the other muscles and ligaments which hold the knee together
while the big muscles yank horrible forces through it aren't up to it
either. So I suggest the deep squats for you would be dangerous, and
you should avoid them, sticking to the knee-behind-the-toe rule in
squats.

When would it be ok to start Hindu squats? I'd suggest, going by the
usual reps/weights rules used in other exercises, that you'd be ok
once you could do a dozen of them. You'd develop that strength by
doing shallow squats, by doing bench steps, by climbing stairs,
etc.. Once you'd got up to high reps of body-weight-bearing knee
exercises where you don't let the knee bend more than a right angle,
you ought to be able able safely to try going lower. And my *guess*,
not being a trained exercise instructor, is that if you can do a dozen
reps of something then it's well enough within your capacity that
doing a dozen reps of it -- provided that doesn't either hurt or leave
you with pains -- is safe.

Don't forget that since these are body-weight-bearing exercises,
there's two quite different ways you can increase your *effective*
strength: by increasing the raw absolute power of your muscles; or by
losing weight.

[Chakolate]

Post by Chris Malcolm
Is this a gender thing? Well, when I was 45, and worked in an office
three flights of stairs up, there was an old lady of 60 who used to
love overtaking me on the stairs, taking them two at a time. She was
fitter than most women half her age, and fitter than me. I couldn't
beat her in a race up the stairs, which we did sometimes when nobody
else was around to embarrass us. Most of her colleagues thought she
was seriously weird at the age of 60 to be wearing jeans and T shirt,
long grey hair, have a good athletic shape, and be running up stairs
for fun, quite apart from the fact that she was also a mathematician
and computer programmer.

Name, please? I may have a new role model. :-)

Chakolate

[Edna Pearl]

Post by Chris Malcolm
But I don't *need* more leg strength as much as I need endurance: I
can carry as heavy weights as I want to for short distances, but
carrying nothing but me I can't walk up a steep hill without needing
breaks, because my legs simply give out.

And by the way, your legs giving out is a strength issue. When your lungs
or heart "give out," that's an endurance issue. The stronger your leg
muscles, the later the "burn" will set in, the less joint pain you'll have
while walking, and the further you can walk.

Post by Chris Malcolm

Post by Edna Pearl
There are good discussions of squat form and rep efficacy at
http://www.trygve.com/pointer.html.

Thanks, lots and lots of useful info there! But I do note that most of
it is aimed at cosmetic body building or muscular strength building,
neither of which interests me, except insofar as some increase in
strength will be necessary to get the endurance I want.

This website also has a lot of good safety info on how to prevent (and
recover from) injury, as do http://www.stumptuous.com/weights.html and
http://www.exrx.net/


ep

[Chris Malcolm]

Post by Edna Pearl

Post by Chris Malcolm
But I don't *need* more leg strength as much as I need endurance: I
can carry as heavy weights as I want to for short distances, but
carrying nothing but me I can't walk up a steep hill without needing
breaks, because my legs simply give out.

And by the way, your legs giving out is a strength issue. When your lungs
or heart "give out," that's an endurance issue. The stronger your leg
muscles, the later the "burn" will set in, the less joint pain you'll have
while walking, and the further you can walk.

I have to disagree with you there. When my legs give out when climbing
a hill it's due to the intense pain and weakness produced by lactic
acid build up. That's because my blood circulation isn't good enough
to flush the stuff out fast enough. A brief rest is all that's needed
to recover. Whereas if I've strained a muscle by pushing it to the
limits of its strength, it's going to take a long rest, hours if not
days, to recover. What I need to do to increase my leg endurance is
to build up a more copious blood supply rather than increase its
strength.

Post by Edna Pearl

Post by Chris Malcolm

Post by Edna Pearl
There are good discussions of squat form and rep efficacy at
http://www.trygve.com/pointer.html.

Thanks, lots and lots of useful info there! But I do note that most of
it is aimed at cosmetic body building or muscular strength building,
neither of which interests me, except insofar as some increase in
strength will be necessary to get the endurance I want.

This website also has a lot of good safety info on how to prevent (and
recover from) injury, as do http://www.stumptuous.com/weights.html and
http://www.exrx.net/

Thanks, I'm going to look through these.

[Dana©]

Post by FurPaw
I went for a ~2-mile walk with Hubster and my dogs.
(This will get pretty boring for y'all, because walking is generally how
I exercise.)
Who's next?

2 Miles! Wow. I walk to the mailbox and I feel I have accomplished
something special. :)

Dana
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons,
for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

[FurPaw]

Post by Dana©

Post by FurPaw
I went for a ~2-mile walk with Hubster and my dogs.
(This will get pretty boring for y'all, because walking is generally how
I exercise.)

2 Miles! Wow. I walk to the mailbox and I feel I have accomplished
something special. :)

Time flies when you're having fun! Oppie has turned into Rabbit Dog
(did I mention this before?) and runs circles around us, nose to the
ground, looking for a rabbit to chase. He keeps us laughing the whole way!

FurPaw

[Chakolate]

Post by FurPaw
Time flies when you're having fun! Oppie has turned into Rabbit Dog
(did I mention this before?) and runs circles around us, nose to the
ground, looking for a rabbit to chase. He keeps us laughing the whole way!

What would he do if he came nose to nose with a rabbit?



Chakolate

[FurPaw]

Post by Chakolate

Post by FurPaw
Time flies when you're having fun! Oppie has turned into Rabbit Dog
(did I mention this before?) and runs circles around us, nose to the
ground, looking for a rabbit to chase. He keeps us laughing the whole way!

What would he do if he came nose to nose with a rabbit?

I have no idea, and I doubt that it'll ever happen, but I truly hope I
see it if it does! :-)

FurPaw

[Louise Bremner]

Post by FurPaw
I went for a ~2-mile walk with Hubster and my dogs.
(This will get pretty boring for y'all, because walking is generally how
I exercise.)

At one point, I got into the habit of "walking to work" (my office is
the front room of the house I live in, so I have to make an effort to
leave the house), but that habit sort-of got abandoned in the very very
hot summer.

________________________________________________________________________
Louise Bremner (log at gol dot com)
If you want a reply by e-mail, don't write to my Yahoo address!

[FurPaw]

Post by Louise Bremner

Post by FurPaw
I went for a ~2-mile walk with Hubster and my dogs.
(This will get pretty boring for y'all, because walking is generally how
I exercise.)

At one point, I got into the habit of "walking to work" (my office is
the front room of the house I live in, so I have to make an effort to
leave the house), but that habit sort-of got abandoned in the very very
hot summer.

Right now I'm walking in the early afternoon, when it's warmest. In the
summer I'll be walking before breakfast. I will. Yes, I will. :-)

FurPaw

[Chakolate]

Post by FurPaw
I went for a ~2-mile walk with Hubster and my dogs.
(This will get pretty boring for y'all, because walking is generally how
I exercise.)
Who's next?

Count it as three five-minutes sessions on the knee-strengthening machine,
as I'll be doing the third session before bed.

BTW, I'll bet the view is lovely. I do miss having a dog to walk.

Chakolate

[FurPaw]

Post by Chakolate

Post by FurPaw
I went for a ~2-mile walk with Hubster and my dogs.
(This will get pretty boring for y'all, because walking is generally how
I exercise.)
Who's next?

Count it as three five-minutes sessions on the knee-strengthening machine,
as I'll be doing the third session before bed.

What's a knee-strengthening machine?

Post by Chakolate
BTW, I'll bet the view is lovely. I do miss having a dog to walk.

It is beautiful. I can see the snow-capped Sangre De Christo mountains
to the east and the Jemez mountains to the west. The path runs along an
arroyo with houses about 1/8 mile away on each side. There's one yard
that has a Malamute and what looks like a Husky mix. When we pass it,
the Mal starts out barking, which quickly turns to roo-rooing, and
finally howling. The Husky joins in, I throw in a few howls of
encouragement, and pretty soon there's a howling chorus of half a dozen
dogs in neighboring yards.

Do you have a neighbor who would let you borrow a dog? There are a lot
of people who would appreciate it if someone could walk the dog when
they're away or at work. Maybe even pay you!

FurPaw

[Chakolate]

Post by FurPaw
What's a knee-strengthening machine?

This machine that homemakerJ and I got while alley-picking. I don't really
know what it's called, but it works you out like a cross between a rowing
machine and a stair stepper. Sort of. Anyway, it really works my leg
muscles, helping to stabilize the knee.

Post by FurPaw
It is beautiful. I can see the snow-capped Sangre De Christo
mountains to the east and the Jemez mountains to the west. The path
runs along an arroyo with houses about 1/8 mile away on each side.
There's one yard that has a Malamute and what looks like a Husky mix.
When we pass it, the Mal starts out barking, which quickly turns to
roo-rooing, and finally howling. The Husky joins in, I throw in a few
howls of encouragement, and pretty soon there's a howling chorus of
half a dozen dogs in neighboring yards.

<giggle> Tomorrow howl one for me, okay?

Post by FurPaw
Do you have a neighbor who would let you borrow a dog? There are a
lot of people who would appreciate it if someone could walk the dog
when they're away or at work. Maybe even pay you!

Hm. That's a thought!


Chakolate

[t***@gmail.com]

news:05KdnRQtHexhUkTcRVn-

Post by FurPaw

Post by Chakolate

Post by FurPaw
I went for a ~2-mile walk with Hubster and my dogs.
(This will get pretty boring for y'all, because walking is

generally how

Post by FurPaw

Post by Chakolate

Post by FurPaw
I exercise.)
Who's next?

Count it as three five-minutes sessions on the knee-strengthening machine,
as I'll be doing the third session before bed.

What's a knee-strengthening machine?

Post by Chakolate
BTW, I'll bet the view is lovely. I do miss having a dog to walk.

It is beautiful. I can see the snow-capped Sangre De Christo

mountains

Post by FurPaw
to the east and the Jemez mountains to the west. The path runs along an
arroyo with houses about 1/8 mile away on each side. There's one yard
that has a Malamute and what looks like a Husky mix. When we pass it,
the Mal starts out barking, which quickly turns to roo-rooing, and
finally howling. The Husky joins in, I throw in a few howls of
encouragement, and pretty soon there's a howling chorus of half a dozen
dogs in neighboring yards.

I bet there are mothers of infants and toddlers and shift workers
living in the area who are even more amused than you are by the
"howling chorus."

Post by FurPaw
Do you have a neighbor who would let you borrow a dog? There are a lot
of people who would appreciate it if someone could walk the dog when
they're away or at work. Maybe even pay you!
FurPaw
--
I see no reason to reply to anything typed above 90 decibels.
To reply, unleash the dog

[Marilee]

When we pass

Post by t***@gmail.com
it,

Post by FurPaw
the Mal starts out barking, which quickly turns to roo-rooing, and
finally howling. The Husky joins in, I throw in a few howls of
encouragement, and pretty soon there's a howling chorus of half a

dozen

Post by FurPaw
dogs in neighboring yards.

I bet there are mothers of infants and toddlers and shift workers
living in the area who are even more amused than you are by the
"howling chorus."

I was reminded of the neighbor lady who lives down the street who used to "
encourage" Chopper to chase cars by rolling down her window and barking at
him while he ran along side her vehicle.

We have a fence, now.

Marilee

[Shirley]

<***@gmail.com> wrote in message news:***@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
<snipped >

[Joanne & Ned]

Post by Chakolate

Post by FurPaw
I went for a ~2-mile walk with Hubster and my dogs.
(This will get pretty boring for y'all, because walking is generally how
I exercise.)
Who's next?

Count it as three five-minutes sessions on the knee-strengthening machine,
as I'll be doing the third session before bed.
BTW, I'll bet the view is lovely. I do miss having a dog to walk.
Chakolate

I hardly miss a day walking my Duncan! And here's a good chance to show off
his cartoon! I happened to stumble across this cartoon, which
coincidentally features my dog! See:
http://www.comics.com/comics/raisingduncan/index.html (for Jan. 4th. Jan.
3rd is fun too!)

Joanne

Post by Chakolate
--
It is always easier to believe than to deny. Our minds are naturally
affirmative.
--John Burroughs

[FurPaw]

Post by Joanne & Ned
I hardly miss a day walking my Duncan! And here's a good chance to show off
his cartoon! I happened to stumble across this cartoon, which
http://www.comics.com/comics/raisingduncan/index.html (for Jan. 4th. Jan.
3rd is fun too!)

You have a Scottie? Such dignified-looking dogs! I hadn't seen Duncan
before, and the site says that they're recycling the series of cartoons
starting the 3rd - if I read it right.

FurPaw

[Joanne & Ned]

Post by FurPaw

Post by Joanne & Ned
I hardly miss a day walking my Duncan! And here's a good chance to show
off his cartoon! I happened to stumble across this cartoon, which
http://www.comics.com/comics/raisingduncan/index.html (for Jan. 4th.
Jan. 3rd is fun too!)

You have a Scottie? Such dignified-looking dogs!

Yes. It's the eyebrows! My Duncan is a real sweetie. He's nine now, but
has just been with our family since last May.

I hadn't seen Duncan

Post by FurPaw
before, and the site says that they're recycling the series of cartoons
starting the 3rd - if I read it right.

I hadn't noticed the recyclying part! I've just been reading it for the
past couple of months, so it'll be nice to see the whole series. And the
last couple (first couple?) have been perfect for this thread!

Joanne

Post by FurPaw
FurPaw
--
I see no reason to reply to anything typed above 90 decibels.
To reply, unleash the dog

[Cathy Friedmann]

Post by FurPaw
I went for a ~2-mile walk with Hubster and my dogs.
(This will get pretty boring for y'all, because walking is generally how
I exercise.)
Who's next?

I shoveled snow that was topped by a layer of ice. Does that count?? ;-)

Cathy

Post by FurPaw
FurPaw
--
I see no reason to reply to anything typed above 90 decibels.
To reply, unleash the dog

[CG]

On Fri, 7 Jan 2005 20:14:19 -0500, "Cathy Friedmann"

Post by Cathy Friedmann

Post by FurPaw
I went for a ~2-mile walk with Hubster and my dogs.
(This will get pretty boring for y'all, because walking is generally how
I exercise.)
Who's next?

I shoveled snow that was topped by a layer of ice. Does that count?? ;-)
Cathy

Absolutely.

Cathering



This being a woman thing isn't at all like they made it out to be
in the brochure. -(our own jfred)

To reply, please remove Spam Free from the email address above.

[Cathy Friedmann]

Post by CG
On Fri, 7 Jan 2005 20:14:19 -0500, "Cathy Friedmann"

Post by Cathy Friedmann

Post by FurPaw
I went for a ~2-mile walk with Hubster and my dogs.
(This will get pretty boring for y'all, because walking is generally how
I exercise.)
Who's next?

I shoveled snow that was topped by a layer of ice. Does that count?? ;-)
Cathy

Absolutely.

Phew - good! 'Cause that's about as exercise-y as I get, beyond traipsing
up & down the halls at school, & the stairs at home. Oh, & there're some
stairways at school. Yeah, that's good, too. ;-)

And there's the occasional walk around the neighborhood in the evening, but
only when the weather's decent, & usually just a mile or so.

"Exercise" is *not* my middle name. ;-)

Cathy

[CG]

On Fri, 7 Jan 2005 20:57:07 -0500, "Cathy Friedmann"

Post by Cathy Friedmann
Phew - good! 'Cause that's about as exercise-y as I get, beyond traipsing
up & down the halls at school, & the stairs at home. Oh, & there're some
stairways at school. Yeah, that's good, too. ;-)
And there's the occasional walk around the neighborhood in the evening, but
only when the weather's decent, & usually just a mile or so.
"Exercise" is *not* my middle name. ;-)
Cathy

Mine, either.

Today I walked up or down all the stairs of the various hotels where I
am attending meetings at a conference. That's the sum total of my
exercise. Yippee.

Cathering


This being a woman thing isn't at all like they made it out to be
in the brochure. -(our own jfred)

To reply, please remove Spam Free from the email address above.

[Chakolate]

Post by CG
Today I walked up or down all the stairs of the various hotels where I
am attending meetings at a conference. That's the sum total of my
exercise.

Good for you, Cathering. And riding and working Breeze counts as exercise,
too, when you get back to it. How's the itch now?

Chakolate

[CG]

On 8 Jan 2005 04:31:58 GMT, Chakolate

Post by Chakolate

Post by CG
Today I walked up or down all the stairs of the various hotels where I
am attending meetings at a conference. That's the sum total of my
exercise.

Good for you, Cathering.

Thank you. Does it count more if it's done in the company of math
geeks? (I'm at the Joint Meetings, Chak.)

;-)

Post by Chakolate
And riding and working Breeze counts as exercise,
too, when you get back to it. How's the itch now?

I've noticed that my stamina is increasing even though I am not riding
at this time of year. Just spending an entire afternoon outside in
the cold, working the horse, seems to be doing me some good. Alas, I
will not be doing that this weekend as I have meetings all day today
and then have to fly to NJ tomorrow.

The rash is subsiding, thank you for asking. Still a bit itchy, but
the skin is returning to normal. Thank goodness!

Cathering

This being a woman thing isn't at all like they made it out to be
in the brochure. -(our own jfred)

To reply, please remove Spam Free from the email address above.

[Chakolate]

Post by CG
Thank you. Does it count more if it's done in the company of math
geeks? (I'm at the Joint Meetings, Chak.)

It may count extra - but which Joint Meetings?

Post by CG
I've noticed that my stamina is increasing even though I am not riding
at this time of year. Just spending an entire afternoon outside in
the cold, working the horse, seems to be doing me some good. Alas, I
will not be doing that this weekend as I have meetings all day today
and then have to fly to NJ tomorrow.

Just being outside and moving around is probably one of the best kinds of
exercise. Today I'll be shoveling snow, and tomorrow I'll be with a 4-
year-old, which involves chasing, tickling, lifting, tickling, throwing,
carrying, horsey rides, shoulder rides, and more stairs than I care to
count. And tickling, too.

Post by CG
The rash is subsiding, thank you for asking. Still a bit itchy, but
the skin is returning to normal. Thank goodness!

Oh, that's good.

Pardon my armchair psychoanalysis, but I think you may be under more stress
than you can handle. The rash, the panic/anxiety/whatever attack on the
plane, individually aren't worrisome, but together they sure are.

Now what you can actually do about the stress, I have no idea. Not much
help to you, am I?


Chakolate

[CG]

On 8 Jan 2005 19:32:13 GMT, Chakolate

Post by Chakolate

Post by CG
Thank you. Does it count more if it's done in the company of math
geeks? (I'm at the Joint Meetings, Chak.)

It may count extra - but which Joint Meetings?

The AMS, the MAA, the AWM, SIAM, and a bunch of other, smaller math
societies. They have all their annual meetings at the same time so
that it is a respectably sized conference (and they can get better
rates on the space).

The geekage factor is really high here..... ;-)

Post by Chakolate
Pardon my armchair psychoanalysis, but I think you may be under more stress
than you can handle. The rash, the panic/anxiety/whatever attack on the
plane, individually aren't worrisome, but together they sure are.
Now what you can actually do about the stress, I have no idea. Not much
help to you, am I?
Chakolate

Well, you're more help than you know.

I don't know about the stress. This would be the first time I'd ever
gotten a rash from stress -- that's usually my daughter's speciality,
but not mine.

But I guess there is a first time for everything...

Cathering



This being a woman thing isn't at all like they made it out to be
in the brochure. -(our own jfred)

To reply, please remove Spam Free from the email address above.

[Chakolate]

Post by CG
The AMS, the MAA, the AWM, SIAM, and a bunch of other, smaller math
societies. They have all their annual meetings at the same time so
that it is a respectably sized conference (and they can get better
rates on the space).

teehee You're at the same conference my advisor is at. I'm tempted to
have you look him up and just tell him something like, 'Watch it. Gail has
spies everywhere.'

He's a pretty silly guy, he'd probably love it.

Chakolate

[Jette Goldie]

Post by CG
Today I walked up or down all the stairs of the various hotels where I
am attending meetings at a conference. That's the sum total of my
exercise. Yippee.

Stairs are good. In the building where I work there are signs
on each floor that say "if you take the stairs everyday, in a
year you will have climbed the equivilent of [X] Munros"

(where X equals the floor number - a Munro is a small Scottish
mountain)

I've often wondered if that means just climbing the stairs once
per day when you arrive, twice per day as you arrive and
come back after lunch, or if going down to the staff restaurant
in the basement (two extra flights of stairs) adds to your total.

[Chris Malcolm]

Post by Jette Goldie

Post by CG
Today I walked up or down all the stairs of the various hotels where I
am attending meetings at a conference. That's the sum total of my
exercise. Yippee.

Stairs are good. In the building where I work there are signs
on each floor that say "if you take the stairs everyday, in a
year you will have climbed the equivilent of [X] Munros"
(where X equals the floor number - a Munro is a small Scottish
mountain)

Well, the biggest Scottish mountains are small compared to the big
mountains in some other parts of the world, but in Scotland a Munro is
a big mountain as Scottish ones go: it's over 3,000 feet in
height. The Munros are the roughly 250 biggest Scottish mountains. If
you start off near sea level, getting up and down one of those on foot
will take many folk all the hours of daylight we currently have (8
hours).

Post by Jette Goldie
I've often wondered if that means just climbing the stairs once
per day when you arrive, twice per day as you arrive and
come back after lunch, or if going down to the staff restaurant
in the basement (two extra flights of stairs) adds to your total.

Well, if we suppose the interfloor height is 15 feet, that divides
into 3,000 200 times, so given weekends and holidays that seems near
enough that climbing one flight every working day for a year ascends
roughly the same height as climbing a Munro from near sea level. But
there's quite a big difference between doing that in one day, and
spreading it out over a year :-)

You can do lots of exercise things on stairs apart from just walking
up them. You can walk up two at a time. You can walk down two at a
time. You can walk up placing just the balls of your feet on the step,
and letting your heel sag down below the step, to lengthen and
strengthen your calves. You can pretend one of your knees is sore and
go up and down with one totally stiff knee (good for hips and lower
back). You can try jumping two footed down onto a landing from one
step up, and gradually increasing it. Very useful exercise things,
stairs :-)

[Jette Goldie]

Post by Chris Malcolm

Post by Jette Goldie
Stairs are good. In the building where I work there are signs
on each floor that say "if you take the stairs everyday, in a
year you will have climbed the equivilent of [X] Munros"
(where X equals the floor number - a Munro is a small Scottish
mountain)

Ye say a "big Scottish mountain" and those guys who live near
the Rockies have a laughing fit I'm afraid. I have to point out
that our mountains are "small but perfectly formed" ;-)

Post by Chris Malcolm
Well, the biggest Scottish mountains are small compared to the big
mountains in some other parts of the world, but in Scotland a Munro is
a big mountain as Scottish ones go: it's over 3,000 feet in
height. The Munros are the roughly 250 biggest Scottish mountains. If
you start off near sea level, getting up and down one of those on foot
will take many folk all the hours of daylight we currently have (8
hours).

Post by Jette Goldie
I've often wondered if that means just climbing the stairs once
per day when you arrive, twice per day as you arrive and
come back after lunch, or if going down to the staff restaurant
in the basement (two extra flights of stairs) adds to your total.

Well, if we suppose the interfloor height is 15 feet, that divides
into 3,000 200 times, so given weekends and holidays that seems near
enough that climbing one flight every working day for a year ascends
roughly the same height as climbing a Munro from near sea level. But
there's quite a big difference between doing that in one day, and
spreading it out over a year :-)
You can do lots of exercise things on stairs apart from just walking
up them. You can walk up two at a time. You can walk down two at a
time. You can walk up placing just the balls of your feet on the step,
and letting your heel sag down below the step, to lengthen and
strengthen your calves. You can pretend one of your knees is sore and
go up and down with one totally stiff knee (good for hips and lower
back). You can try jumping two footed down onto a landing from one
step up, and gradually increasing it. Very useful exercise things,
stairs :-)

So, walking up a flight to my working floor at 7am, down three
flights to the canteen at 10am , up those three flights at 1015am,
down one flight and up three flights outdoors to the street (our
entrance "Upper ground" floor is a fair bit below street level),
200 yards along the street to buy a magazine, 200 yards back,
down the outside stairs, up one flight to my desk, + numerous
trips up and down to the floors above to fetch and carry casework,
and at least 30 trips to the printer every day (about 20 yards from
my desk).

Hmmm - no wonder my step counter said I was doing the recommended
number of steps per day.

[Chris Malcolm]

Post by Jette Goldie

Post by Chris Malcolm

Post by Jette Goldie
Stairs are good. In the building where I work there are signs
on each floor that say "if you take the stairs everyday, in a
year you will have climbed the equivilent of [X] Munros"
(where X equals the floor number - a Munro is a small Scottish
mountain)

Well, the biggest Scottish mountains are small compared to the big
mountains in some other parts of the world, but in Scotland a Munro is
a big mountain as Scottish ones go: it's over 3,000 feet in
height. The Munros are the roughly 250 biggest Scottish mountains. If
you start off near sea level, getting up and down one of those on foot
will take many folk all the hours of daylight we currently have (8
hours).

Ye say a "big Scottish mountain" and those guys who live near
the Rockies have a laughing fit I'm afraid. I have to point out
that our mountains are "small but perfectly formed" ;-)

Small as they are in world terms, they're probably too big for me in
my current state of unfitness to get up one from sea level and down
again in a single day, and quite big enough to kill several people a
year. Even the Welsh mountains, smaller than Scotland's, are quite big
enough to have trained quite a number of world class top mountaineers.

I don't pay any attention to folk who *live* near the Rockies and
sneer at the size of Scottish mountains -- they have to have actually
*climbed* the Rockies on *foot* to acquire the right to laugh. Driving
up to the highest parking spot first doesn't count :-)

[Chakolate]

Post by Chris Malcolm
I don't pay any attention to folk who *live* near the Rockies and
sneer at the size of Scottish mountains -- they have to have actually
*climbed* the Rockies on *foot* to acquire the right to laugh. Driving
up to the highest parking spot first doesn't count :-)

That's right, Chris - size really doesn't matter. ;-)

Chakolate

[soft]

On 11 Jan 2005 20:01:14 GMT, Chakolate

Post by Chakolate

Post by Chris Malcolm
I don't pay any attention to folk who *live* near the Rockies and
sneer at the size of Scottish mountains -- they have to have actually
*climbed* the Rockies on *foot* to acquire the right to laugh. Driving
up to the highest parking spot first doesn't count :-)

That's right, Chris - size really doesn't matter. ;-)
Chakolate

hahahaha


Karryl

[FurPaw]

Post by Chris Malcolm
I don't pay any attention to folk who *live* near the Rockies and
sneer at the size of Scottish mountains -- they have to have actually
*climbed* the Rockies on *foot* to acquire the right to laugh. Driving
up to the highest parking spot first doesn't count :-)

Damn! Well that leaves me out!

In my younger, fitter days, I took some good hikes in the Rockies, up a
2-3 thousand feet, starting from around 7000 feet. Now - well, I think
my daily walk ascends and descends a couple hundred feet over the course
of a couple of miles. But at least I'm walking it faster than I was!

FurPaw

[Chakolate]

Post by Chris Malcolm
You can do lots of exercise things on stairs apart from just walking
up them. You can walk up two at a time. You can walk down two at a
time. You can walk up placing just the balls of your feet on the step,
and letting your heel sag down below the step, to lengthen and
strengthen your calves. You can pretend one of your knees is sore and
go up and down with one totally stiff knee (good for hips and lower
back). You can try jumping two footed down onto a landing from one
step up, and gradually increasing it. Very useful exercise things,
stairs :-)

There's also going down on just the balls of the feet. Of course, many
women do that all the time, by the nature of their footwear.

Chakolate

[Jette Goldie]

Post by CG
On Fri, 7 Jan 2005 20:14:19 -0500, "Cathy Friedmann"

Post by Cathy Friedmann

Post by FurPaw
I went for a ~2-mile walk with Hubster and my dogs.
(This will get pretty boring for y'all, because walking is generally how
I exercise.)
Who's next?

I shoveled snow that was topped by a layer of ice. Does that count?? ;-)
Cathy

Absolutely.

I walked to the cinema and back in a howling gale, leaning on
my cane. I think that counts! <g>

[Chakolate]

Post by Jette Goldie
I walked to the cinema and back in a howling gale, leaning on
my cane. I think that counts! <g>

Definitely. Was the flick worth it?

Chakolate

[Jette Goldie]

Post by Chakolate

Post by Jette Goldie
I walked to the cinema and back in a howling gale, leaning on
my cane. I think that counts! <g>

Definitely. Was the flick worth it?

Last night's movie? Oh yes, definately - "Vera Drake". Will
probably get small art house treatment over there, but it
got "Best Film" at the Venice Film Festival and the lead
actress got "Best Actress" at the same festival - well
deserved, IMO. Not a feel good movie, but very very
thought provoking.

Tonight I saw "Alexander". If you haven't seen it yet, I
would say don't bother.

[FurPaw]

Post by Jette Goldie
Last night's movie? Oh yes, definately - "Vera Drake". Will
probably get small art house treatment over there, but it
got "Best Film" at the Venice Film Festival and the lead
actress got "Best Actress" at the same festival - well
deserved, IMO. Not a feel good movie, but very very
thought provoking.

I missed this when it was playing in Santa Fe, and yes, in a "small art
house." I hope it comes out in DVD. The reviews were excellent.

FurPaw

[Chakolate]

Post by Cathy Friedmann
I shoveled snow that was topped by a layer of ice. Does that count?? ;-)

You betcha. Now go soak in a hot tub.

Chakolate

[Cathy Friedmann]

Post by Chakolate

Post by Cathy Friedmann
I shoveled snow that was topped by a layer of ice. Does that count?? ;-)

You betcha. Now go soak in a hot tub.

Sounds good. :-) Plus, it'd be guaranteed that a cat - most likely Herrie,
but maybe both of them - would come in & keep me company. This tub has a
rounded rim, though - so I need to put a stool next to the tub, for them to
sit on & check out the water. Plus I'd take along a book & most probably a
cup of tea, or a hot toddy, or some wine, or liqueur. Very relaxing...

*But*, I am trying to get my next week's lesson plans done, & I keep
breaking my concentration by checking ngs, as it is... A hot bath at this
point, & geometry would leave off in mid-week... ;-) Angles next week - the
kids figured out a few years ago that a mnemonic device for differentiating
between acute & obtuse angles - keeping their names straight, that is - is
that an acute angle is (relative to a right angle) "a cute little angle".
Works! Just have to make sure that they're acute angles, not angels. ;-)

Cathy